Tamron Hall and Lish Steiling Want to Build Your Kitchen Confidence

Good friends are fun to be around, but a great friend builds your confidence. Talk show host and best-selling author Tamron Hall and Emmy and James Beard award-winning chef Lish Steiling are great friends. Their new book "A Confident Cook" isn’t just a collection of recipes they both love, though it’s certainly packed with those, it’s a glimpse into their friendship and an invitation to their table. And it’s a big table. Whether you’re a seasoned home cook or a complete culinary newbie, "A Confident Cook"meets you where you live and gets you excited about killing it in the kitchen.

Their energy is infectious, even over Zoom. During the course of a very fun hour, we discussed the importance of salt, why this cookbook needed two roast chickens, and how a couple of root vegetable tattoos kicked off their friendship.

This book is delightful. Tell me a little bit about how y'all met.

Tamron: I actually love that you said it was delightful, because that's something that I think of when I think of our friendship. It's a funny word, delightful, but it was a delight to meet, in a sea of other journalists.

I think people make assumptions that we're all hanging out at a "Cheers"-style cafe or whatever bar after the newscast. In fact, it's a very high-energy, high-paced environment. I was lucky enough to have my office and dressing room next to the kitchen at the Today show. And that gave you great access to a lot of the leftovers from huge cooking segments. And Al Roker and myself and Savannah would go in. And if you're lucky enough, [you can] score what was made during the show.

"I thought, someone with root vegetables tattooed on their arms? They mean business."

And one day, I noticed Lish in the kitchen and her tattoos on her forearm—one is a radish, and one is a carrot. I didn't know the radish at the time. I recognized the carrot—full disclosure—but I saw things with roots, and I thought, Someone with root vegetables tattooed on their arms? They mean business. I also noticed that she had a couple of bruises on her arm, and I thought, Wow, cooking is like MMA? What's going on here? And I went over and said, “What's going on with your arms?” And she said, “Oh, this is a carrot and a radish, and I'm in boot camp.”

And I'm like, “Boot camp?”

She's like, “Yeah, my wife and I go to this weekend workout boot camp.” The next thing I know, she made her move and invited me to the boot camp. I'm not sure why.

What was it about me that day that screamed I needed to be at a boot camp, Lish?

Lish: You just asked the right question. I was like, “You should come.” And she actually showed up.

T: That's the best part. I showed up.

And so, at the heart of how we met, it really is two people having the nerve to be curious about each other. We were at boot camp, and a few hours later at my place drinking champagne—which we affectionately refer to as “bubbles”—and asking more curious questions about each other. The world that we live in today, [there's a] lack of curiosity sometimes about someone else's journey, but also in cooking, the fear of being curious with cooking.

How would you describe your relationship to cooking and to food before you met Lish?

T: Well, my dad did all the cooking in my home. My dad passed away in 2008, just as I started with MSNBC and NBC. I was lucky enough to have a grandfather who was a pit master and a dad who baked, cooked, did everything. So I grew up in this very different world than most people, I think, where the strongest cooks in my family were the men.

When my dad died, there was a void. The central character of our lives missing, and I wanted to really understand the joy that he experienced. My dad would cook big meals, and sometimes he wouldn't eat. He would just sit and watch us eat.

The only other person I found on this journey that exudes that kind of joy was Lish. Our friendship blossomed right at that time as I was searching for this connection to cooking, the connection to the joy, the connection to the confidence.

And how would you describe your relationship to cooking now? Are you a confident cook?

T: [Laughs] Ma'am, don't play. Let's not play.

I used to look in the fridge and say, “Oh gosh, what am I going to do?” [Now] I don't approach it like that. It's fun. It's relaxing. Last night, because I've cooked every recipe in our book 1,600 times—it was just myself and my son—and I made a simple [pasta with] shrimp, I threw in some corn, I threw a little basil in because it's summer, olive oil, salt, pepper. I mean, it was easy. My son said, “Is that grown-up spaghetti?” And I was like, “It is.” Then he slurps down a piece because there's nothing not to like in it, even for a kid.

[Now] I'm less consumed with gadgets. There's this now-infamous story of me walking into a store and leaving like “Pretty Woman” with bags and bags and then not knowing what to do with all of it. And then Lish came over, and she's like, “Why do you have this and that?” And I'm like, “Well, I thought it would make the recipe better.” She's like, “No, no, no.”

We went to Restaurant Depot, and she was like, “You don't have to have 3,000 things.” And yes, there are going to be things from your culture or how you were raised that you like cooking with. Some people love a Crockpot, so we're not going to tell you to get rid of your Crockpot, for example.

Boiling an egg so it will peel is actually kind of hard. While I've got you here, Lish, what is the secret to boiling and egg that will actually peel?

L: Well, this is gonna sound weird, but our technique is lowering it into already boiling water. That helps make the peeling easier. And shocking it [in cold water], so that you actually stop the cooking and it kind of seizes up.

But also an old egg. Not like it's spoiled, and it's been sitting in your fridge for three months, but an older egg has a larger air pocket in it, so that actually helps make the peeling easier. If you grab it from under your chicken in the morning and boil it, it might be a little pain in the butt. But those are the secrets, really.

T: And the temperature of eggs. My husband is like, “I want my egg well done.” I'm the opposite. I want a nice, creamy texture. We take you through what that looks like when you're preparing a five-minute or seven-minute egg at home. And that can translate when you eat out. When you go out and you want a five-minute egg, you know what that is.

Also, if you go to dinner and you're like, “Wow, that was a really delicious fish, I can maybe do something similar at home”...we want to set you up for that confidence of not having to go back to the restaurant, because you understand the technique of searing a piece of fish. You can look at it and go, “I actually know that technique. Now I just have to adjust the flavors.”

One of our first vacations, we went to Antigua with my nephew and Lish's wife. Every night, we had whole fish. And so when we were going on our journey with this book, I said, “Lish, the idea of preparing a whole fish, not a fillet, is intimidating. People bristle at it.” And that's why that delicious whole fish is in the book.

And Lish, what did you learn throughout this process?

L: As a chef, you write in chicken scratch. You can write down a recipe for a line cook, and they're going to understand what you write down. No problem. It doesn't have to be a thorough recipe. When you learn to be a recipe writer, you learn how to properly write a thorough recipe. So that's a whole other thing. With this book, we got to incorporate our voices.

And so I got to put my own tone and spin on these recipes and say, “Stop. Taste it. Think about it.” And these are the things that I taught Tamron when she would text me “What should I make for dinner?” And I would walk her through a dish. At one point or another, I would say, “Now taste it. Does it need more salt? Do you want to add a little bit of lemon juice?” And those are the things that get people thinking and give them power in the kitchen. It's like,“Oh, I have control over that.”

So, being able to put the Lish-isms in recipes that you normally have to leave very cookie-cutter, that was the fun part.

The book is very conversational, but it also answers questions that people might assume they know the answers to, like what it means to “season to taste.” How do you learn to season correctly?

L: I think the most important thing there is to learn your salt. There are so many different varieties of salt out there these days. Sea salt, kosher salt, flake salt, fine salt, all the pink salts. You have to really get to know your salt and how salty it is, first and foremost. How it feels in your hands—that’s such an important thing.

Diamond Crystal is our go-to. My love runs deep for Diamond Crystal. Not sponsored, but I know how it feels in my hand. I know how salty it is. It's now second nature, right? If you use Morton's, that's fine. It takes longer to dissolve, so you just have to realize that it's going to take a minute and it might not stick as well as Diamond Crystal.

“The first step is actually trying. If you never try, you're not going to cook.”

Then practice. If you season a steak, maybe you start by seasoning it a little lighter. You slice it, and you're like, “Oh, it's cooked perfectly. It's beautiful. I finished it with a little squeeze of lemon, but it needs more salt.” You can add a little flake salt. And suddenly, it's a purposeful addition. You're like, “Oh, chef's kiss. Look at that little flake salt.”

Then it adds a little pop, and it's perfectly seasoned. Moving forward, next time I make that steak, I can season it a little bit more aggressively. And then you test it again. So it does just take practice. And practice takes the balls to try it. You just have to try to cook.

We really do feel like anybody can cook. But it's an intimidating thing. The first step is actually trying. If you never try, you're not going to cook.

T: And one of the things that Lish taught me is layering. I grew up in a salt and pepper family. Even though my dad was a great cook, he was a salt and pepper guy. But with fish, for example, butter is adding a different level of flavor—flavor is not exclusive to salt and pepper and flavor.

Just understand that 99% of the things you will cook in your life need salt. I don't understand people who don't cook with salt.

L: The layering is so important. Where I grew up, people don't season anything. They take table salt and they season it at the end. And then they say it's too salty. Well, that's because all that you're tasting is the salt.

Salt is intended to make the food taste the best that it can. You sweat out your onions, celery, and carrots, and you season it with salt. Now those onions, carrots, and celery taste the best they can taste. Now you're going to add in whatever your next thing is. And you add a little bit more salt.

Then that's going to taste as good as it can taste. You know, it's all about the layering.

T: It's understanding that when you salt your water for pasta, many times that's the only chance you'll have to give that pasta flavor, right? Some people believe it's there to make the water boil quickly—it's there to flavor the pasta. And so then when you layer your bucatini in with our sauce, you're not just putting a flavorless noodle in with this delicious sauce.

L: I'm just so proud of you, Tamron!

One thing that I appreciate about the book is how it is organized. You start with these very fundamental recipes that teach you techniques—I like that there are two roasted chickens in the book.

L: That's a funny story. That came to be because Tamron FaceTimed me, and she's like, “I'm trying to spatchcock this chicken, I can't do this. We need just a regular whole roasted chicken.” She was frustrated. But calmed down. We walked her through it, she got it done.

And then the second time she tried the spatchcock, she was able to do it with no problems. It just took practice. But if people don't want to spatchcock, they can have a whole roasted chicken and you can still have a delicious whole chicken, so that's how the two came to be.

T: But I can tell you, once you spatchcock, you never go back. And that's the fun part of it because there's no better feeling than “I did it!” My kid, he's always like, “I did it!”

That's why we have cocktails. They're delicious, but listen, that's a confidence booster. You'll be like, “I got a mimosa bar!” and your friends come over “What is that?” “I got a cherry, I got...”

The tahini malt. Listen. When I'm dead, just put it in my hand in my casket.

L: I have two good friends, my sister-in-law and my oldest friend back in Wisconsin, who tested the majority of the book in a very short amount of time, and I'm very grateful for them both. Neither of them had made a successful French omelet before.

But both of them had success the first time they made it. And that made me so happy because Andrea and Sam both were like, “I could hear you, standing behind me saying ‘OK, now do this, now coax it.’” And that's everything, you know? And I know that a French omelet can be intimidating for a lot of people. But to have relatively good home cooks say, “I'm intimidated by this, but I'm going to try it,” and then have success at it and be so excited about it, that's pure joy.

In the book, you talk about how the people at the meat counter and the seafood counter are usually underutilized. What are you allowed to ask them?

L: bless my guys at Fish Tails because they know when I walk in, I'm going to be smelling the fish. They just hold it out to me now. You're not going to lick it. You can ask to smell the fish, that's OK. And you can say, “Take the skins off, make sure the pin bones are out, portion it to a six-ounce size,” or “I want it cut into perfect squares.” They are there to help you succeed.

And it's the same thing with the butcher. You can go in and say, “I want a ribeye that's two inches thick.” And they will cut you a ribeye that's two inches thick. A lot of people, I think, are so intimidated just to ask.

These guys, they do what they do incredibly well. So, maybe try a new fish, ask them how they would cook it. Ask them how they would prepare it. You go to a butcher and you say, I want to cook a ribeye. How would you do it? What seasoning would you put on it? What rub would you suggest? So that's a plethora of knowledge that you can utilize, especially once you start that conversation. They are happy to talk to you about what they do and what they love.

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Claire Lower

Claire Lower is the Digital Editor for Christopher Kimball’s Milk Street, with over a decade of experience as a food writer and recipe developer. Claire began writing about food (and drinks) during the blogging boom in the late 2000s, eventually leaving her job as a lab technician to pursue writing full-time. After freelancing for publications such as Serious Eats, Yahoo Food, xoJane and Cherry Bombe Magazine, she eventually landed at Lifehacker, where she served as the Senior Food Editor for nearly eight years. Claire lives in Portland, Oregon with a very friendly dog and very mean cat. When not in the kitchen (or at her laptop), you can find her deadlifting at the gym, fly fishing or trying to master figure drawing at her local art studio.